On a certain occasion Payasi the Warrior said to Venerable Kumara Kassapa: "I, my lord Kassapa, hold this doctrine, this view: 'There is no life after death; there are no living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is no fruition, no ripening, of good and evil deeds." "Warrior, I never encountered or heard such a view. For how can a man say such a thing as this: 'There is no life after death; there are no living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is no fruition, no ripening, of good and evil deeds'? Have you any reason for this view?" "My lord Kassapa, I have a reason for this view." "Warrior, what is it like?"
"Here, my lord Kassapa, I have friends and companions, kinsmen and relatives, who are murderers, thieves, fornicators and adulterers, liars, backbiters, calumniators, triflers, covetous, malevolent of spirit, holders of false views. Sometimes they fall sick, suffer pain, are in a bad way. When I feel certain that these men will not recover from that sickness, I go to them and speak thus: 'There are some monks and Brahmans who hold this doctrine, this view: "Men who are murderers, thieves, fornicators and adulterers, liars, backbiters, calumniators, triflers, covetous, malevolent of spirit, holders of false views,--such men, on dissolution of the body, after death, go to a state of punishment, to a state of pain, to a state of suffering, to hell." You, sirs, are such men. If the words of these reverend monks and Brahmans are true, you, sirs, on dissolution of the body, after death, will go to a state of punishment, to a state of pain, to a state of suffering, to hell. If, on dissolution of the body, after death, you should be reborn in a state of punishment, in a state of pain, in a state of suffering, in hell, pray return and say to me: 'There is a life after death; there are living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is a fruition, a ripening, of good and evil deeds.' Now my friends are trustworthy and reliable. If my friends saw anything and said they had seen it, such a thing would necessarily be true. 'Very well,' say they, giving me their word. But for all that, they never return and say it, nor do they send a messenger either. This, my lord Kassapa, is one reason why I hold the view: 'There is no life after death; there are no living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is no fruition, no ripening, of good and evil deeds.'"
"Well, Warrior, I will reply by asking you a question on the subject. You may answer it in any way you please. Warrior, what have you to say to the following?
"Suppose your men were to capture a brigand, a criminal, and arraign him here before you, saying: 'Here, lord, is a brigand, a criminal. Inflict upon him whatever punishment you desire.' And you were to say: 'Well, take this fellow, bind his arms tight behind his back with a stout rope, shave his head, and to the loud beating of a drum lead him about from street to street, from crossing to crossing, conduct him out of the South gate, and cut off his head in the place of execution south of the city.' And they were to say: 'Very well;' and in obedience to your command were to take that fellow, bind his arms tight behind his back with a stout rope, shave his head, and to the loud beating of a drum lead him about from street to street, from crossing to crossing, conduct him out of the South gate, and make him sit down in the place of execution south of the city. And suppose that brigand were to say to his executioners: 'Let my lord-executioners wait,--in such-and-such a village or market-town I have friends and companions, kinsmen and relatives,--until I show myself to them and return.' Would he obtain his request? Would not the executioners rather, even as he babbled, cut off his head?"
"Quite right, my lord Kassapa."
"Suppose, Warrior, your friends reborn in hell say to the warders of hell: 'Let our lord-warders of hell wait until we go and say to Payasi the Warrior: "There is a life after death; there are living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is a fruition, a ripening, of good and evil deeds."' Are they likely to obtain their request?"
But Payasi the Warrior remained unconvinced. Said he:
"Here, my lord Kassapa, I have friends and companions, kinsmen and relatives, who refrain from murder, theft, fornication and adultery, lying, backbiting, calumny, trifling, covetousness, malevolence of spirit, holders of orthodox views. Sometimes they fall sick, suffer pain, are in a bad way. When I feel certain that these men will not recover from that sickness, I go to them and speak thus: 'There are some monks and Brahmans who hold this doctrine, this view: "Men who refrain from murder, theft, fornication and adultery, lying, backbiting, calumny, trifling, covetousness, malevolence of spirit, holders of orthodox views,--such men, on dissolution of the body, after death, go to a state of bliss, to heaven." You, sirs, are such men. If the words of these reverend monks and Brahmans are true, you, sirs, on dissolution of the body, after death, will go to a state of bliss, to heaven. If, on dissolution of the body, after death, you should be reborn in a state of bliss, in heaven, pray return and say to me: "There is a life after death; there are living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is a fruition, a ripening, of good and evil deeds."'
"Now my friends are trustworthy and reliable. If my friends saw anything and said they had seen it, such a thing would necessarily be true. 'Very well say they, giving me their word. But for all that, they never return and say it, nor do they send a messenger either. This, my lord Kassapa, is another reason why I hold the view: "There is no life after death; there are no living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is no fruition, no ripening, of good and evil deeds."'
"Well, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you. Even by a parable does many a man of intelligence in this world comprehend the meaning of a statement."
"Warrior, it is precisely as though a man were submerged in a dung-pit, head and all. And you were to order your men: 'Now then, pull that man out of that dung-pit.' And they were to say: 'Very well;' and in obedience to your command were to pull that man out of that dung-pit. And you were to say to them: 'Now then, scrape the dung from off the body of that man, and scrape it well.' And they were to say: 'Very well;' and in obedience to your command were to scrape the dung from off the body of that man, and were to scrape it well. And you were to say to them: 'Now then, massage the body of that man three times with yellow clay, and massage it well.' And they were to massage the body of that man three times with yellow clay, and were to massage it well. And you were to say to them: 'Now then, anoint that man with oil and bathe him well three times with soft bath-powder.' And they were to anoint that man with oil and to bathe him well three times with soft bath-powder. And you were to say to them: 'Now then, dress that man's hair and beard.' And they were to dress that man's hair and beard. And you were to say to them: 'Now then, present that man with costly garlands and costly perfumes and costly garments.' And they were to present that man with costly garlands and costly perfumes and costly garments. And you were to say to them: 'Now then, escort that man into a palace and furnish him with the Five Pleasures of Sense.' And they were to escort that man into a palace and to furnish him with the Five Pleasures of Sense.
"What think you, Warrior? Would that man, well bathed, well anointed, with hair and beard dressed, decked with garlands and ornaments, dressed in clean garments, aloft in a splendid palace, supplied and provided with the Five Pleasures of Sense, ministered unto,--would that man desire to plunge once more into that dung-pit?"
"No, indeed, my lord Kassapa." "Why not?" "A dung-pit, my lord Kassapa, is a filthy place; filthy in fact, and so regarded; foul-smelling in fact, and so regarded; disgusting in fact, and so regarded; repulsive in fact, and so regarded."
"Precisely so, Warrior, to the gods, human beings are filthy and so regarded, foul-smelling and so regarded, disgusting and so regarded, repulsive and so regarded. Indeed, Warrior, the stench of human beings drives the gods a hundred leagues away! How can you expect your virtuous friends, reborn in a state of bliss, in heaven, to return and say to you: 'There is a life after death; there are living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is a fruition, a ripening, of good and evil deeds'?"
But Payasi the Warrior, still unconvinced, repeated once more what he had said before regarding his virtuous friends, remarking that those of his friends who had refrained from murder, theft, fornication and adultery, lying, and occasions of heedlessness through the use of intoxicating liquor and spirits, and who therefore, according to the monks and Brahmans, must have been reborn in the heaven of the Thirty-three gods, had never returned to earth.
"Well, Warrior," said Venerable Kumara Kassapa, "I will reply by asking you a question on the subject. You may answer it in any way you please. Warrior, what have you to say to the following?
"Warrior, a hundred of our years are equivalent to a night and a day in the heaven of the Thirty-three gods. Thirty of these nights make up a month, and twelve of these months make up a year. The term of life of the Thirty-three gods is a thousand of these celestial years. Your friends have indeed been reborn in the heaven of the Thirty-three gods. Now suppose the thought has occurred to them: 'We are supplied and provided with the Five Pleasures of Sense. After we have been ministered to for two or three celestial nights and days, we will go and say such-and-such to Payasi the Warrior.' Have they, in fact, had time to do so?"
"No, indeed, my lord Kassapa. The fact is, my lord Kassapa, we should be dead and gone long before they returned. But who told my lord Kassapa that the Thirty-three gods exist, or that they live as long as this? I, my lord Kassapa, do not believe that the Thirty-three gods exist, or that they live as long as this."
"Warrior, it is precisely as though a blind man could not see black and white objects, could not see blue objects, could not see yellow objects, could not see red objects, could not see pink objects, could not see even and uneven, could not see the stars, could not see the moon and the sun. And that man were to say: 'There are no black and white objects; there is no one who can see black and white objects. There are no blue objects; there is no one who can see blue objects. There are no yellow objects; there is no one who can see yellow objects. There are no red objects; there is no one who can see red objects. There are no pink objects; there is no one who can see pink objects. There is no even and uneven; there is no one who can see even and uneven. There are no stars; there is no one who can see the stars. Moon and sun do not exist; there is no one who can see the moon and the sun. I do not know them, I do not see them; therefore they do not exist.' Warrior, would that man speak correctly were he to speak thus?"
"No, indeed, my lord Kassapa. There are black and white objects; there are those who can see black and white objects. There are blue objects; there are those who can see blue objects. There are yellow objects; there are those who can see yellow objects. There are red objects; there are those who can see red objects. There are pink objects; there are those who can see pink objects. Even and uneven do exist; there are those who can see even and uneven. There are stars; there are those who can see the stars. Moon and sun do exist; there are those who can see the moon and the sun. I do not know them, I do not see them; therefore they do not exist!" "No, indeed, my lord Kassapa! That man would not speak correctly were he to speak thus."
"Warrior, you are just like the blind man in the parable when you speak thus: 'But who told my lord Kassapa that the Thirty-three gods exist, or that they live as long as this? I, my lord Kassapa, do not believe that the Thirty-three gods exist, or that they live as long as this.'
"By no means, Warrior, can the next world be seen in the way you imagine it can,--with this Eye of Flesh. But, let me tell you, Warrior, there are monks and Brahmans who resort to forest-hermitages in the wilderness, remote lodgings where there is little sound, little noise; and there, living heedful, ardent, resolute, they clarify the Heavenly Eye; with the Heavenly Eye, transcending any mere human eye, clarified, they behold not only this world, but the next, and living beings reborn without the intervention of parents."
But Pavasi the Warrior remained unconvinced. Said he:
"Here, my lord Kassapa, I see monks and Brahmans observing the Precepts, doing good works, desiring to live, not desiring to die, desiring happiness, avoiding suffering. When, my lord Kassapa, I see them, the following thought occurs to me: 'If these reverend monks and Brahmans really knew, "Better than this would it be were we dead," immediately these reverend monks and Brahmans, observing the Precepts, doing good works, would either eat poison, or draw the sword, or kill themselves by hanging, or jump off a jumping-off place.' But since evidently these reverend monks and Brahmans do not know, 'Better than this would it be were we dead,' therefore these reverend monks and Brahmans, observing the Precepts, doing good works, desiring to live, not desiring to die, desiring happiness, avoiding suffering, do not kill themselves. This, my lord Kassapa, is another reason why I hold the view: 'There is no life after death; there are no living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is no fruition, no ripening, of good and evil deeds.'"
"Well, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you. Even by a parable does many a man of intelligence in this world comprehend the meaning of a statement.
"In olden times, Warrior, a certain Brahman had two wives. One had a son about ten or twelve years old; the other was with child, about to bring forth. Now that Brahman died. And that youth said this to his mother's fellow: 'My lady, whatever money or grain or silver or gold there is, all this is mine. You have no part in this; turn over to me, my lady, the inheritance of my father.' Upon this, that Brahman's wife said this to that youth: 'Just wait, my dear, until I bring forth. If it is a boy, he also will have one portion; if it is a girl, she also will be yours to be enjoyed.'
"The second time also the youth said this to his mother's fellow: 'My lady, whatever money or grain or silver or gold there is, all this is mine. You have no part in this; turn over to me, my lady, the inheritance of my father.' The second time also that Brahman's wife said this to that youth: 'Just wait, my dear, until I bring forth. If it is a boy, he also will have one portion; if it is a girl, she also will be yours to be enjoyed.' The third time also that youth said this to his mother's fellow: 'My lady, whatever money or grain or silver or gold there is, all this is mine. You have no part in this; turn over to me, my lady, the inheritance of my father.' Thereupon that Brahman's wife took a sword, went into an inner room, and plunged the sword into her belly: 'Until I know whether it is a boy or a girl!' She destroyed herself, her living child, and her property. She met destruction and ruin, like the foolish, short-sighted woman she was, seeking an inheritance otherwise than in the right way."
"Precisely so, Warrior, you, a foolish, short-sighted man, will meet destruction and ruin by seeking the next world otherwise than in the right way, just as that Brahman's wife, that foolish, short-sighted woman, also met destruction and ruin by seeking an inheritance otherwise than in the right way.
"No, indeed, Warrior! Monks and Brahmans who observe the Precepts, who do good works, permit what is not yet ripe to become fully ripe. What is more, being wise men, they wait patiently for it to become fully ripe. For, Warrior, there is need of monks and Brahmans who observe the Precepts, who do good works, continuing alive. Warrior, in the same proportion as monks and Brahmans who observe the Precepts, who do good works, remain alive for a long long time, in the same proportion they generate much merit and act for the welfare of many, for the happiness of many, out of tender compassion for the world, for the weal and welfare and happiness of angels and men."
But Payasi the Warrior remained unconvinced. Said he:
"We cannot see the soul after death. 'Here, my lord Kassapa, my men capture a brigand, a criminal, and arraign him before me, saying: "Here, lord, is a brigand, a criminal. Inflict upon him whatever punishment you desire." And I say to them: 'Well, place this man, alive as ever, in a jar; put the lid on the jar; cover it with a wet skin; seal it with a thick paste of wet clay; lift it up on the oven ; start a fire.' 'Very well,' they say to me. In obedience to my command they place that man, alive as ever, in a jar, put the lid on the jar, cover it with a wet skin, seal it with a thick paste of wet clay, lift it up on the oven, start a fire. When we know, 'That man is dead,' then we lift that jar down, break the seal, take off the lid, and look down with bated breath: 'Perhaps we may see his soul coming out! But no! We do not see his soul coming out."
"Well, Warrior, I will reply by asking you a question on the subject. You may answer it in any way you please.
"Warrior, do you not recollect, while taking a siesta, seeing in a dream the delights of the grove, the delights of the woods, the delights of cleared ground, the delights of the lotus-pond?" "I do recollect, my lord Kassapa, while taking a siesta, seeing in a dream the delights of the grove, the delights of the woods." "Were people watching you at that time?" "Yes." "Did they see your soul coming in or going out?" "No, indeed, my lord Kassapa." "So then, Warrior, although you were alive, living persons did not see your soul coming in or going out. How then, after your death, could they be expected to see your soul coming in or going out?"
But Payasi the Warrior remained unconvinced. Said he:
"Here, my lord Kassapa, my men capture a brigand, a criminal, and arraign him before me, saying: 'Here, lord, is a brigand, a criminal. Inflict upon him whatever punishment you desire.' And I say to them: 'Well, weigh this man, while yet alive, in the balances; strangle him to death with a bow-string; then weigh him again in the balances.' 'Very well,' they say to me. In obedience to my command they weigh that man, while yet alive, in the balances, strangle him to death with a bow-string, and then weigh him again in the balances. When he is alive, then he is lighter and softer and more pliable. But when he is dead, then he is heavier, more rigid, less pliable."
"Well then, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you.
"Suppose, Warrior, a man were to weigh in the balances an iron ball which had been heated all day until it was red-hot, glowing, gleaming, flaring; and suppose, afterwards, he were to weigh in the balances that same iron ball, cold, extinguished. When would that iron ball be lighter, softer, more pliable,--when it was glowing, gleaming, flaring,--or when it was cold, extinguished? When, my lord Kassapa, that iron ball was connected with heat, was connected with wind, when it was glowing, gleaming, flaring, then it was lighter and softer and more pliable. But when that iron ball was not connected with heat, was not connected with wind, when it was cold, extinguished, then it was heavier, more rigid, less pliable.
"Precisely so, Warrior, when this body is connected with life, and connected with heat, and connected with consciousness, then it is lighter and softer and more pliable. But when this body is not connected with life, is not connected with heat, is not connected with consciousness, then it is heavier, more rigid, less pliable."
But Payasi the Warrior remained unconvinced. Said he:
"Here, my lord Kassapa, my men capture a brigand, a criminal, and arraign him before me, saying: 'Here, lord, is a brigand, a criminal. Inflict upon him whatever punishment you desire.' And I say to them: 'Well, batter this man,--cuticle and skin and flesh and sinews and bones and marrow,--and deprive him of life.' 'Very well,' they say to me. In obedience to my command they batter that man,--cuticle and skin and flesh and sinews and bones and marrow,--and deprive him of life. When he is half-dead, I say to them: 'Now then, fling this man down on his back. Perhaps we may see his soul coming out!' They fling that man down on his back. But no! We do not see his soul coming out!
"I say to them: 'Now then, fling this man down bent double...on one side...on the other side...; stand him right side up...up side down...; beat him with the hand...with clods...with a stick...with a sword; shake him down...shake him together...shake him out. Perhaps we may see his soul coming out!' They do so. But no! We do not see his soul coming out!
"Now he has that same organ of sight, the eye; but that organ does not sense these visible objects. He has that same organ of hearing, the ear; but that organ does not sense these sounds. He has that same organ of smell, the nose; but that organ does not sense these odors. He has that same organ of taste, the tongue; but that organ does not sense these flavors. He has that same organ of touch, the body; but that organ does not sense these objects of touch."
"Well then, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you.
"In olden times, Warrior, a certain trumpeter went to a frontier district with his trumpet. He approached a certain village, and having approached, stood in the center of the village, blew the trumpet three times, set the trumpet on the ground, and sat down on one side.
"Now, Warrior, to those frontiersmen occurred the following thought: 'What is it that makes that sound,--so charming, so delightful, so intoxicating, so fascinating, so infatuating?' Assembling, they said this to that trumpet-blower: 'Sir, what is it that makes that sound,--so charming, so delightful, so intoxicating, so fascinating, so infatuating?' 'Friends, it is that trumpet which makes that sound,--so charming, so delightful, so intoxicating, so fascinating, so infatuating.' They flung that trumpet down on its bottom. 'Speak, O trumpet! Speak, O trumpet!' But no! That trumpet made not a sound!
"They flung that trumpet down bent double...on one side...on the other side...; they stood it right side up...up side down...; they beat it with the hand...with clods...with a stick...with a sword...; they shook it down...shook it together...shook it out. 'Speak, O trumpet! Speak, O trumpet!' But no! That trumpet made not a sound!
"Then, Warrior, to that trumpet-blower occurred the following thought: 'How foolish these frontiersmen are! How can they hope to hear the sound of the trumpet by seeking otherwise than in the right way?' With the frontiersmen watching him, he picked up the trumpet, blew the trumpet three times, and walked off with the trumpet. Then, Warrior, to those frontiersmen occurred the following thought: 'Ah! When this trumpet is connected with a human being, and is connected with exertion, and is connected with wind, then this trumpet makes a sound! But when this trumpet is not connected with a human being, is not connected with exertion, is not connected with wind, then this trumpet makes no sound!'"
"Precisely so, Warrior, when this body is connected with life, and is connected with heat, and is connected with consciousness, then it advances and retires and stands and sits and lies down; then it sees visible objects with the eye, and hears sounds with the ear, and smells odors with the nose, and tastes flavors with the tongue, and touches objects of touch with the body, and understands the Doctrine with the mind. But when this body is not connected with life, and is not connected wth heat, and is not connected with consciousness, then it does not advance, does not retire, does not sit, does not lie down; then it does not see visible objects with the eye, and does not hear sounds with the ear, and does not smell odors with the nose, and does not taste flavors with the tongue, and does not touch objects of touch with the body, and does not understand the Doctrine with the mind."
But Payasi the Warrior remained unconvinced. Said he:
"Here, my lord Kassapa, my men capture a brigand, a criminal, and arraign him before me saying: 'Here, lord, is a brigand, a criminal. Inflict upon him whatever punishment you desire.' And I say to them: 'Well, cut this man's cuticle. Perhaps we may see his soul coming out!' They cut that man's cuticle. But no! We do not see that man's soul coming out! I say to them: 'Now then, cut this man's skin...flesh...sinews...bones...marrow. Perhaps we may see his soul coming out!' But no! We do not see his soul coming out!"
"Well then, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you."
"In olden times, Warrior, a fire-worshiper, a Jatila, dwelt in a forest-abode, in a leaf-hut. Now, Warrior, a certain country district rose in revolt. And that multitude spent one night near the hermitage of that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, and departed. Now, Warrior, to that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, occurred the following thought: 'Suppose I were to approach that encampment! Perhaps I may find something of use there!'
"Accordingly that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, arose betimes and approached that encampment. Having approached, he saw in that encampment, abandoned, a slip of a young boy lying on his back. When he saw him, the following thought occurred to him: 'It would ill become me were a human being to die with me looking on. Suppose I were to lead this boy to my hermitage, and to bring him up and feed him and rear him!' Accordingly that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, led that boy to his hermitage, and brought him up and fed him and reared him.
"When that boy was about ten or twelve years old, that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, had occasion to go to the country on some business or other. Now that fire-worshipper, that Jatila, said this to that boy: 'I desire, my son, to go to the country. Please tend the fire, and do not let it go out on you. Only, if the fire should go out on you,--here is a hatchet, here are sticks of wood, here is a fire-drill,--please kindle the fire and tend it.' And having thus instructed that boy, that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, went to the country.
"Now while that boy was absorbed in play, the fire went out. Thereupon to that boy occurred the following thought: 'My father said this to me: "My son, please tend the fire, and do not let it go out on you. Only, if the fire should go out on you,--here is a hatchet, here are sticks of wood, here is a fire-drill,--please kindle the fire and tend it." Suppose I were to kindle the fire and tend it!'
"Accordingly that boy began to chop up the fire-drill with his hatchet: 'Perhaps I may produce fire!' But no! He did not produce fire! He split the fire-drill into two pieces...into three pieces...into four pieces...into five pieces...into ten pieces...into a hundred pieces. He reduced it to so many bits; having reduced it to so many bits, he pounded them in a mortar; having pounded them in a mortar, he winnowed them in a strong wind: 'Perhaps I may produce fire!' But no! He did not produce fire!
"Now that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, having transacted that business in the country, approached his own hermitage. Having approached, he said this to that boy: 'My son, did the fire go out on you?' 'Father, while I was absorbed in play here, the fire went out on me.' So saying, the boy told his foster-father what he had done.
"Then to that fire-worshiper, that Jatila, occurred the following thought: 'How foolish this boy is! how short-sighted! How could he hope to produce fire by seeking otherwise than in the right way?' With the boy watching him, he picked up a fire-drill, produced fire, and said this to that boy: 'This, my son, is the way to produce fire; not, as you, a foolish, short-sighted boy, tried to produce it, by seeking otherwise than in the right way.'
"Precisely thus, Warrior, are you, a foolish, short-sighted man, seeking the next world otherwise than in the right way. Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Let it not be to your disadvantage and sorrow for a long time to come."
"No matter how emphatically my lord Kassapa says this, yet, for all that, I cannot bring myself to renounce this wicked heresy. Even King Pasenadi Kosala knows, even kings outside know regarding me: 'Payasi the Warrior holds this doctrine, holds this view: "There is no life after death; there are no living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is no fruition, no ripening, of good and evil deeds."' If, my lord Kassapa, I were to renounce this wicked view, there would be those who would say of me: 'How foolish is Payasi the Warrior! how short-sighted! how ready to accept what is hard to accept!' Even with anger will I hold to this view, even with hypocrisy will I hold to this view, even with conceit will I hold to this view."
"Well then, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you. Even by a parable does many a man of intelligence in this world comprehend the meaning of a statement."
"In olden times, Warrior, a great caravan of a thousand carts went from the eastern country to the western country. Wherever it went, very quickly were consumed grass, sticks, water, and pot-herbs. Now over that caravan were two caravan-leaders, one over five hundred carts, one over five hundred carts. And to these caravan-leaders occurred the following thought: 'This is a great caravan of a thousand carts. Wherever we go, very quickly are consumed grass, sticks, water, and pot-herbs. Suppose we were to divide this caravan into two caravans of five hundred carts each!' They divided that caravan into two caravans, one of five hundred carts, one of five hundred carts. One caravan-leader only loaded his carts with abundant grass and sticks and water, and started his caravan forward.
"Now when he had proceeded a journey of two or three days, that caravan-leader saw coming in the opposite direction in a chariot drawn by asses, a black man with bloodshot eyes, with ungirt quiver, wearing a garland of lilies, his garments wet, the hair of his head wet, the wheels of his chariot smeared with mud. Seeing, he said this: 'Whence, sir, do you come?' 'From such-and-such a country.' 'Whither do you intend to go?' 'To such-and-such a country.' 'Evidently, sir, farther on in the wilderness a heavy rain has been in progress.' 'Yes, indeed, sir. Farther on in the wilderness a heavy rain has been in progress. The roads are drenched with water; abundant are grass and sticks and water. Throw away, sir, the old grass, sticks, and water; with lightly burdened carts go ever so quickly; do not overburden the conveyances.'
"Now that caravan-leader told his drivers what that man had said, and gave orders as follows: 'Throw away the old grass, sticks, and water; with lightly burdened carts start the caravan forward.' 'Yes, sir,' said those drivers to that caravan-leader. And in obedience to his command they threw away the old grass, sticks, and water, and with lightly burdened carts started the caravan forward. Neither in the first stage of the journey, nor in the second, nor in the third, nor in the fourth, nor in the fifth, nor in the sixth, nor in the seventh, did they see grass or sticks or water; they all met destruction and death. And all that were in that caravan, whether men or beasts, did that ogre, that demon, devour, leaving only the bare bones.
"When the second caravan-leader knew, 'It is now a long time since that caravan started out,' he loaded his carts with abundant grass and sticks and water, and started his caravan forward. Now when he had proceeded a journey of two or three days, this caravan-leader saw coming in the opposite direction in a chariot drawn by asses, a black man with bloodshot eyes, with ungirt quiver, wearing a garland of lilies, his garments wet, the hair of his head wet, the wheels of his chariot smeared with mud. Seeing, he said this: 'Whence, sir, do you come?' 'From such-and-such a country.' 'Whither do you intend to go?' 'To such-and-such a country.' 'Evidently, sir, farther on in the wilderness a heavy rain has been in progress.' 'Yes, indeed, sir. Farther on in the wilderness a heavy rain has been in progress. The roads are drenched with water; abundant are grass and sticks and water. Throw away, sir, the old grass, sticks, and water; with lightly burdened carts go ever so quickly; do not overburden the conveyances.'
"Now that caravan-leader told his drivers what that man had said, adding: 'This man surely is no friend of ours, no kinsman or blood-relative. How can we trust him on our journey? On no account must the old grass, sticks, and water, be thrown away. Start the caravan forward, leaving the things just as they are. I will not permit you to throw away the old.' 'Yes, sir,' said those drivers to that caravan-leader. And in obedience to his command they started the caravan forward, leaving the things just as they were. Neither in the first stage of the journey, nor in the second, nor in the third, nor in the fourth, nor in the fifth, nor in the sixth, nor in the seventh, did they see grass or sticks or water; but they saw that caravan in destruction and ruin. And of those that were in that caravan, whether men or beasts, they saw only the bare bones, for they had been eaten by that ogre, by that demon.
"Thereupon that caravan-leader addressed his drivers: 'This caravan here met destruction and ruin solely through the folly of that foolish caravan-leader who acted as its guide. Now then, throw away those wares in our own caravan which are of little worth, and take those wares in this other caravan which are of great worth.' 'Yes, sir,' said those drivers to that caravan-leader. And in obedience to his command they threw away all those wares in their own caravan which were of little worth, and took those wares in that other caravan which were of great worth. And they passed in safety through that wilderness solely through the wisdom of that wise caravan-leader who acted as their guide.
"Precisely so, Warrior, you, a foolish, short-sighted man, will meet destruction and ruin by seeking the next world otherwise than in the right way, just as did that man in the parable, that caravan-leader. And those who fondly imagine that they must listen to you, that they must put their trust in you, they also will meet destruction and ruin, just as did those drivers. Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Let it not be to your disadvantage and sorrow for a long time to come."
But Payasi the Warrior remained obstinate. "I cannot bring myself," said he, "to renounce this wicked heresy." "Well then, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you.
"In olden times, Warrior, a certain swineherd went from his own village to another village. There he saw much dry dung thrown away. When he saw it, the following thought occurred to him: 'Here I have much dry dung thrown away which would make fodder for my pigs. Suppose I were to take the dry dung away from here!' He spread out his upper robe, took much dry dung, wrapped it up in a bundle, put the bundle on his head, and went his way.
"When he was half-way home, a great cloud rained out of season. He went on with the load of dung oozing and trickling, smeared with dung to his finger-tips. People saw him going along in this manner and spoke as follows: 'Aren't you crazy, sir? aren't you out of your mind? Otherwise how can you be carrying a load of dung, oozing and trickling, smeared with dung to your finger-tips?' 'You, sirs, are crazy; you, sirs, are out of your mind. Why, what I am carrying is fodder for my pigs!'
"Warrior, you are just like the man in the parable who carried dung. Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy!" "That will I not." "Well then, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you.
"In olden times, Warrior, two dicers played at dice. The first dicer swallowed every ace. The second dicer saw that dicer swallow every ace. Seeing, he said this to that dicer: 'You, sir, have it all your own way. Give me the dice, sir; I must hurry away.' 'Yes, sir,' said that dicer, and handed over the dice to that dicer.
"Now that dicer painted the dice with poison, and said this to that dicer: 'Come, sir, let us play at dice.' 'Yes, sir,' said that dicer in assent to that dicer. A second time also those dicers played at dice; a second time also that dicer swallowed every ace. The second dicer saw that dicer swallow for the second time also every ace. Seeing, he said this to that dicer:
"'Smeared with the strongest poison
"Warrior, you are just like the dicer in the parable. Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Let it not be to your disadvantage and sorrow for a long time to come."
"No matter how emphatically my lord Kassapa says this, yet, for all that, I cannot bring myself to renounce this wicked heresy. Even King Pasenadi Kosala knows, even kings outside know regarding me: 'Payasi the Warrior holds this doctrine, holds this view: "There is no life after death; there are no living beings reborn without the intervention of parents; there is no fruition, no ripening, of good and evil deeds." If, my lord Kassapa, I were to renounce this wicked view, there would be those who would say of me: 'How foolish is Payasi the Warrior! how short-sighted! how ready to accept what is hard to accept!' Even with anger will I hold to this view, even with hypocrisy will I hold to this view, even with conceit will I hold to this view."
"Well then, Warrior, I will compose a parable for you.
"In olden times, Warrior, a certain district rose in revolt. And friend said to friend: 'Let's go, sir; let's go to that district; there, perhaps, we may come by some spoils.' 'Yes, sir,' said friend to friend in assent. They went to that country, to some village or other where there was an uproar. There they saw much hemp thrown away. Seeing, friend addressed friend: 'Here, sir, is much hemp thrown away. Now then, sir, you pack up a load of hemp, and I'll pack up a load of hemp; we'll both carry off a load of hemp.' 'Yes, sir,' said friend to friend in assent, and packed up a load of hemp.
"They both went with their loads of hemp to some village or other where there was an uproar. There they saw much hempen thread thrown away. Seeing, friend addressed friend: 'The very thing, sir, for which we should have wanted hemp! Here is much hempen thread thrown away! Now then, sir, you throw away your load of hemp, and I'll throw away my load of hemp; we'll both carry off a load of hempen thread.' 'This load of hemp I have has been carried a long way and is well tied together. Let me alone! Decide for yourself!' And that friend threw away his load of hemp and took a load of hempen thread. 'They went to some village or other where there was an uproar. There they saw many hempen cloths thrown away. Seeing, friend addressed friend: 'The very thing, sir, for which we should have wanted hemp or hempen thread! Here are many hempen cloths thrown away! Now then, sir, you throw away your load of hemp, and I'll throw away my load of hempen thread; we'll both carry off a load of hempen cloths.' 'This load of hemp I have, has been carried a long way and is well tied together. Let me alone! Decide for yourself!' And that friend threw away his load of hempen thread and took a load of hempen cloths.
"They went to some village or other where there was an uproar. There they saw an abundance of flax...linen thread...linen cloths;...cotton...cotton thread...cotton cloths;...iron;...copper;...tin;...lead;...silver;...gold thrown away. Seeing, friend addressed friend: 'The very thing, sir, for which we should have wanted hemp or hempen thread or hempen cloths, or flax or linen thread or linen cloths, or cotton or cotton thread or cotton cloths, or iron or copper or tin or lead or silver! Here, sir, is gold in abundance thrown away! Now then, sir, you throw away your load of hemp and I'll throw away my load of silver; we'll both carry off a load of gold.' 'This load of hemp I have, has been carried a long way and is well tied together. Let me alone! Decide for yourself!' And that friend threw away his load of silver and took a load of gold.
"They approached their own village. That friend who went there with a load of hemp, was welcomed neither by mother and father, nor by children and wife, nor by friends and companions. Nor from them did he obtain happiness and satisfaction. But that friend who went there with a load of gold, was welcomed by mother and father, and by children and wife, and by friends and companions. And from them he obtained happiness and satisfaction.
"Warrior, you are just like the man in the parable who carried a load of hemp. Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Renounce, Warrior, this wicked heresy! Let it not be to your disadvantage and sorrow for a long time to come."
"Even with your former parables, my lord Kassapa, have I been pleased and delighted. Moreover, I like to hear your picturesque quick-witted answers. Only I should have realized sooner the importance of identifying myself with you. It is delightful, my lord Kassapa! It is delightful, my lord Kassapa! It is precisely, my lord Kassapa, as if one were to set upright what has been thrown down, or were to reveal what is hidden, or were to point out the way to a bewildered person, or were to carry a lamp into the darkness so that persons with eyes might see things;--precisely so has my lord Kassapa illustrated the Doctrine in manifold ways. Lo! my lord Kassapa, I seek refuge in that Exalted One, Gautama, and in the Doctrine, and in the Congregation of Monks. Let my lord Kassapa keep me, who have sought the Refuges, as his disciple from this day forth, so long as I shall live."
